Against The Herd With Steve Todd

It’s a bright and breezy morning as you walk along the bustling city streets, the sound of chatter and laughter filling the air. As you enter your favorite restaurant, you overhear two business experts engaging in conversation about the future of workspaces. Curiosity piqued, you listen in as Chris Herd and Steve Todd share their thoughts on topics from the impact of technology on the workplace, and more:

• The impact of the pandemic on the real estate industry and the shift toward a hybrid work model
• The Role of Technology in Shaping the Future of Work 
• Pivoting and staying relevant in a constantly changing world

Watch The Full Episode Here

Find The Full Transcript Here

Chris:

Welcome to Against the Herd, the series where we dive deep into conversations with contrarian leaders and visionaries at the cutting edge of the future of work and living. In today's episode, we're excited to introduce our guest, Steve Todd. Steve is the head of workplace strategy in the NASDAQ in New York City, where he leads a team focused on providing productive workspaces that elevate employee experiences. Steve is also the founder of Open Source Workspace, a network of professionals seeking to share information, knowledge, insights, and experience for the collective purpose of maximizing workplace productivity and employee experience for everyone. Please welcome Steve Todd.

Steve Todd:

Chris, thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to come and chat with you. I've had the pleasure of interviewing you for open source workplace and also the New York Fed, so I guess the tables are turned and you can get you're back on me for all the tough, tough questions that I like to pose to you, you know?

Chris:

Well, we can prep for that, what's coming are all those hard-hitting questions, so yeah, I appreciate you taking the time and it's always a pleasure to catch up.

Steve Todd:

Likewise.

Chris:

Maybe starting with a softball, I think clearly the world has changed and in many ways the people that have been at the forefront of trying to grapple with that change have been the people trying to handle the workspace that we're in. What's that been like for you pre-pandemic? What was the mindset then? And then obviously as we went through this transition, how's your thinking changed?

Steve Todd:

Yeah, and I'm glad you positioned the question that way Chris, because it's important to understand what was the pre-pandemic philosophy within organizations, and at NASDAQ we believe that everyone should have a seat, everyone should be based in the office. Yes, we had a small population that worked remotely, but primarily we focused on ensuring everyone had a desk, everyone had a home. You went to the office and you knew exactly where you were, you had your belongings, and you felt that that was where you sat. Then fast forward during the pandemic, we flipped, everyone went to work from home and then coming back, what was that going to look like and what's sort of been the outcomes of that and then also how does an organization shift from where that is to where we are today?

As an organization, the philosophy was always, "Okay, we're going to be hybrid two days a week in the office," that's sort of what was mandated within the organization. Some locations have been better than others at following those mandates for various reasons. Then today as an organization, we're evaluating, okay, well if people are not coming in two days a week, how then do we manage that going forward? That's sort of the conundrum that the executive team is working through at the moment, which is common in every organization. Where are you looking at utilization rates? Probably around 30%.

If I look through sort of European locations, it's higher than that. It's probably averaging around 40. The Asia Pacific locations are probably higher than that again. Again, a lot of this is through the cultural shifts and cultural changes throughout the world. I would say the US is probably the least utilized office that we have within the portfolio. But that's been a shift in, as I said, from a mentality from an organization. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see, how the organization, the employees, and how leaders adjust to these changes.

Chris:

Mm. Taking those two parts, I guess the first question would be why do you think there is such a stark difference and not just within your organization? I think you speak to a lot of people.

Steve Todd:

Right.

Chris:

Why do you think there's such a stark difference between what we see in Europe and the rest of the world and what we see in the United States?

Steve Todd:

I don't know. I wish I did know. I just think it's cultural, I think, and even within Europe itself, there are cultural differences in sort of people's philosophy. If I take two locations if I take a Swedish person and I take a British person, we are both from that camp, we know how the Brit's mentality is, we say nothing, we're going to do our own thing and we'll basically do what we want until we're told to do otherwise, where we find that this culture in Sweden is very much, "Let's have a conversation about what that looks like," and then everyone buys into that philosophy and then follows that philosophy. Those are things that we're seeing in other countries in Europe. Obviously, in Asia we look at the living conditions, how people live, and the buildup of the cities, and therefore they find a lot more opportunities or more incentives to go into the office for their own personal benefits. I also think culturally, I just find that the Asian culture, people want to be together, people want to be in the office.

Is also whenever you see different days, different days of the week where different countries are in the office more frequently and for a variety of reasons. As we were going through the pandemic, we ran a lot of workshops on what is the future of work at NASDAQ, and we did interviews with lots and lots of locations where we invited every employee and every employee had the opportunity to come and tell us why they wanted to go back to the office, what's important, and what functions and tasks they're looking to do. It was just fascinating to see the differences between the different geographies and people as well, different teams as well. We think about how functions operate, some need to be together and actually benefit from being together. Others not so much.

Chris:

Hm. Yeah, and I think that's an interesting place to go to next, maybe starting with the slightly higher level of the executive team feeling and then zooming into the individual teams. It seems to me there's this significant disconnect between what the most senior people in an organization think is the right answer for the collective company. Then as you go down the organization so to speak, as you speak to leaders of different parts, their views on what needs to happen in order to maximize productivity is often super different.

Steve Todd:

I agree a little bit with what you're saying. The only thing I'll sort of push back on a little bit if I was to say is I think at the executive level you have to think about the bigger picture. You have to think about every single stakeholder. Employees are part of it, customers are another thing, shareholders is another point you have to think about, and we will look at it and we'll go, "Well, this is what the employee wants is how the employee functions." But they have to think about, okay, what is that bigger picture? What is the mission? What is the purpose of the organization and what are we here to do? I understand organizations are huge ships. To turn them, irrespective of whether the leadership thinks that we should need to go down one route for how employees work, there has to be a lot of consult and thought over what is the best thing for the long-term strategy of the organization?

I always go back to sort Simon Sinek's book, The Infinite Mindset, right? Leaders need to have that infinite mindset. It's not necessarily hard to react to today, but what is the best thing for the organization to ensure that organization is around for years to come? Just having that mindset I think puts a different spin on it, a different lens. I don't think ... Leaders are leaders for a reason. You're a CEO for a reason. There's things that you see, there's ways that you think, they're not going to do anything to jeopardize the organization in long term future of the organization where no matter how individuals within the organization may think they're thinking of that long term game.

Chris:

Mm. How do you think about the difference between, I guess going during the pandemic, people would speak about remote work and now I guess there's a transition that's occurring which is like, let's not use the word remote, let's use the word distributed or something else. I think your view's even more myopic than that in some ways where you talk about work from anywhere. How do you think about that from the perspective of every team needing to decide or having the ability to choose where they do their best work?

Steve Todd:

I think it's imperative that every team, every department, every company answer that question, where does their team need to do their best work? Because let's be honest, that's the only reason why that team exists for the organizations, for the purpose of the organization. Almost so I connect the work from anywhere. I think we're moving to a work from anywhere model. Hybrid is, it's kind of like, okay, that's for office based people. You think about the definition of what hybrid is. I think organizations will naturally shift to work from anywhere and I define work from anywhere is wherever you need to be to do your productive work. That could be an office, that could be a coworking, that could be a cafe, that could be an RV sitting in Texas as I am today. Or it could be where you are in the US, when we spoke yesterday in Disney World, you know what I mean? It doesn't matter where you are. Each team needs to understand.

But I also think individuals within that team need to be honest with themselves. Where do they need to be so that they can provide their best work for the organization? That's every employee's responsibility. Every team's responsibility is to deliver for the organization and obviously to buy into that mission, purpose, and goals of the organization, and I think every executive team needs to provide that sort of overview and that concept to the organization so everyone buys into that as well. I think there is a connection between those and I think as time evolves, we're going to see greater connection between the mission, purpose, values, and goals of the organization to how teams work.

Chris:

Hm. I guess I see it as there's, to me, there's this healthy tension here, which is I think what you talk about's entirely correct, where people need to be honest, companies need to be honest. But I think equally the other half of that is that there needs to be trust. I think you're actually a really interesting case study in this where you've been at the NASDAQ for a long time, you've transitioned to work three days a week rather than five, and I think that whole conversation around how you are as productive if not more productive in those three days versus the five, maybe starting with the first part there, how do you think about the disconnect or the distance perhaps between what the individual wants, what's good for them, and what their manager believes is for the organization?

Steve Todd:

I think that concerning communication. It's no matter who you are, you need to know what's expected of you. Then it's your responsibility to deliver what's expected of you as the employee and then you worked all that way through the whole entire hierarchy of an organization. I think about from your perspective, you have your direct leadership and you have, I'm sure, set very clear goals and a vision and a purpose for organization that then transcends down and then it comes back up again, okay, so who is delivering? I think it comes down to communication. I'm fortunate. I have a manager who is very transparent, who is very candid and open in a great way. You talked about me transition to the three days a week. That's where, as a leader, he's provided this safe place to have these open conversations and not feel that the team feels like, "Okay, we can't approach in that perspective."

I think that's the other side of the communication. How do you create a safe environment to allow these conversations to take place and a safe environment, meaning that there is this bubble where you can say whatever, and it just stays within that bubble until someone wants to pull a trigger and do something. Again, I'm fortunate that I operate in a team that actually operates within that philosophy. I'm in a great team and I'm very fortunate and yeah, it's ... Yeah, I've lost my train of thought there. I hope we can come back with your question.

Chris:

Yeah, I think I can get you back on track. I think when we caught up yesterday, your point here was I might work three days, but those three days are incredibly focused, and the space that I have with those three days, I'm then able to be more considered, I can think about my answers, and ultimately if someone comes to me and asks a question, they're getting a better answer because I'm not just giving them the first thing that pops into my head. Yeah, maybe talk to me about how you focus in those three days, how the rest of the team feels about that, and I think, ultimately, how you perform as a whole.

Steve Todd:

Yeah, and I think the way for other people to vision this, what does this look like? I want everyone to think about what is that week before you go on vacation? Whenever you know you're going and meet with who people may not have access to you. Think about how much work you get through in those final few days before you go on vacation. That's what it's like for me almost every week. I work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, so by the time I get to Tuesday, I'm catching up on everything I need to get through or what I've missed or what I need to get done for that week. Thursday I'm focused on the team, what does the team need from me before I leave? I always have the conversation with my manager, "What do you need from me before we go there?" That means I'm hyper productive in those days. The team also knows that I'm in those three days, so our conversations are much more direct. A lot of the fluff is eliminated, meetings are typically shorter. Yeah, and then those days where I'm not working, I almost see that as my thinking time.

When we were chatting yesterday, it was kind of like if you think of an entrepreneur, why do entrepreneurs up at 5:00 AM in the morning to allow themselves that ability to think before the pressure of the day starts? Saturday mornings were always my most productive, thoughtful times where I could get up and I'm the most relaxed I am, and that's whenever I become my most creative. Now I've got four days of that, so that means I've got almost three full Saturdays if you think about it from that context of my mind thinking. I'm trying to think about the problems that I've gone through at NASDAQ. I actually spend more time thinking about NASDAQ on my days off when I'm sort of thinking about these things.

You think about all the questions you're asking me, also manage the real estate portfolio, so I'm trying to work out, okay, so what is the strategies we need to do for all these different options and different leases that we have? If the utilization is this, the actual sublease market is that, our employees are doing this, and it's like, okay, so I get the opportunity to sit back and really think and digest about those things. I get the opportunity to read about all the market analysis and all those different locations, understanding what the different companies are doing within those geographies. That's all time to me where I can sit and digest those things.

That's when I was saying being most productive, one could look at it and go, "Well, I was doing that over the five days," but now it's much more direct and the organization feels, and I think the team feels, you could maybe speak to those individually, they may have a different opinion, but what they share with me anyway is that I actually contribute a lot more. I almost think as well, I've almost become more of a consult to the team as well, because I'm not in the mire so much, so I'm not in the weeds of all the every day. I'm almost at the strategy level now coming in and doing those sort of things. But look, I'm fortunate that the team's allowed me to do this and everyone in the team has got on board with this and I'm truly blessed.

Chris:

Yeah, I guess ultimately when you get to zoom out, and particularly when you're in a role like you are where it is highly strategic and in some ways predictive of what or where the puck is going, you need to understand this is what the market's going to look like, this is what utilization is going to look like, this is the habits and behaviors we're going to see from the team. If you are zoomed in and you are in meetings back to back five days a week, when do you actually have time to do the work? In your case, doing the work is thinking about what needs to happen in the future. I guess leaning on that expertise, what is your prediction of what the real estate market begins to settle and look like while acknowledging it's probably going to be incredibly different between one city or one country and anything else but broad generalizations?

Steve Todd:

Yeah, look, it is so hard to say and no matter what I say I'm wrong. I totally get that because if I was to look at various markets across the world, whoever would've thought the San Francisco real estate market would be what it is today? Absolutely no idea. Who could envision what was going to be? I look at things through that lens.

I think organizations will always have offices. I think teams need places to go, and I think it's important that offices exist where you have large gatherings of people or at least the ability to bring people together, be there on an ad hoc basis to utilize co-working and things like that. I think that will always be there. I do believe that organizations will get more flexible and provide employees with more flexibility.

What does that mean As a real estate leader? That means we have to think about agility, we have to think about how teams perform, and we have to think what teams need when they do turn up in the office. What is the things that they actually need to do and why are they getting into the office? Those are the questions that whenever we meet with our local teams, that's why we're always asking, "Why are you coming to the office? What is it you need?" Because my purpose is to provide the organization an environment so that they can come every day and do their most productive work. That's it.

Now as we evolve to being more distributed and being all over the place, well then that means different things will require. What those needs are, I've yet to determine. What I do think though, I do think that digital workplace is much superior to the physical workplace. I think the digital workplace allows us to be a lot more flexibility transition from one thing to the other. We're talking on this platform, but we could easily in a heartbeat if something happened here, flip to another platform and continue the conversation. You think about a physical work environment to make those changes? That's tough, that's expensive. I think we're going to lean more on a digital workplace and I think the physical work environment will become more strategic and more defined in its purpose. What that purpose is will be different for every organization, be different for every department within an organization, and I don't know what that's going to be.

Chris:

I think there's a really interesting parallel to be drawn between the rise of the internet, the rise of e-commerce, what then happened with physical footprint for stores, and what's happening now. I think if I look back 20 years and you look at the rise of Amazon or Apple's maybe the best example of this, Amazon's a bad example 'cause they don't have a physical footprint, so let's use Apple as the example. Their stores did change, they became more experiential. People were going there because they had an explicit purpose and the purpose was to pick up the thing, to use the thing, and really understand more than you can online just looking at black and white pictures of what the product looks like.

Steve Todd:

Yeah.

Chris:

I guess there's something that would be sad for that. I think the question you asked, well why are you actually coming to the office? I think it's a really interesting one because I do think there are reasons why people do want to come. I think there's great value in coming together physically, but I think the question you ask is the right one is what is the purpose and the purpose and the purpose is always different. How do you design workplaces for that? Because I think again, right now today, there probably isn't the view that here's the five things that I come together to be in person with people for. But I suspect at some point there is a lot more clarity and at that point, you then have to design spaces that are predicated on doing those five things, but doing them at a super high level.

Steve Todd:

Yeah, and I think technology is what actually is still enabling that physical work environment to do those things. As I think about those conversations, the conversation, all people really want to come to the office for is to get together, it's to be physically close to each other, to sit down in a room with a whiteboard, with technology there, and actually hash out what that is. That's the true benefit. There are those that just love coming to the office. They want to come to the office every day, they want to sit in front of a computer, and they just want to work because that's what they want to do. It's really understanding what are those differences, what are those nuances to ensure they're there. I would be reluctant to spend capital today to transform a workplace until we actually can understand what that future looks like in the longer term. It's just too expensive to build out and then change a workplace and get it wrong. I think we have to sort of rely on the data, we have to rely on people's experiences and the teams who are coming in, and then I think there will be shifts between different teams on what they need and then that's when those transitions will happen. But at this moment in time, I just would not spend capital on changing workplace. I just wouldn't do it.

Chris:

Mm-hmm. What I hear is the chips haven't settled, let's not make the bet yet.

Steve Todd:

Yeah.

Chris:

What would be the signal for you to make the bet?

Steve Todd:

I think it would be, again, in those conversations it would be a leader coming or I have an engagement with the local team and saying, "What's missing? Why are you here? When you come here, what are the problems you're having? How can we improve?" Because a workplace, it's a living animal. It constantly breathes, it constantly changes. The demands on it are different every day and therefore you have to engage with the users to really understand what that is.

Look, and we've been fortunate in NASDQ where we've the opportunity to do a lot of engagement with our employees and our focus is always on what makes employees productive. We came up with productivity factors years ago to really what focuses on, and no matter who you really talk to it, unless you fix the basics, it's really hard then to get onto the next levels of what people really need. But for me it is always going to be coffee, water, clean air, all those basics, and then the ability for people to come together and be in a room, be it in sitting together in a block of of desks where the team's sitting together. I think those are going to be the things. I think it will be a case of conversations with local teams, engaging facility managers, leaning on them.

Facility managers are brilliant, they know everybody. They know absolutely everything about everybody within the organization and it's leaning on your team to really bring it and raise questions and concerns that local teams have.

Chris:

Mm. Yeah, one of the things that scares me most about the office is hot desking, actually. I think people come to the office because they like the consistency of, "I can get my head down, I can do my work, but I really like who I sit next to and I have human relationships with those people." I think to me that feels like one of the hardest problems to solve is I'm going to go in on these dates, but am I going to be able to spend time with these people or is it just going to be in meeting spaces? Yeah, I do not envy you the task of trying to figure that out where everyone gets to sit next to everyone that they want to sit next to regularly on a day-to-day basis.

Steve Todd:

Technology today can do that for us. We roll out a platform that allows individuals to create circles so you can create circles with your friends and then the technology, we don't deploy this element of the technology, but then the technology can then basically create a seating chart where you can be sit beside your circles so the technology does it for you so that could be addressed. But seating is one of the hardest jobs and then thankfully the team who managed that did a wonderful job in ensuring that everyone's happy.

I remember at Microsoft years ago, I think it was Ryan Fuller I think was the individual who actually created this system using the Teams and Microsoft 360 created a floor plan, a seating chart based on that. Technology can do these things and technology can probably do it way better than human individuals or leaders can do it because they know where those interactions take place. But I agree with you. Look, I worked pre-pandemic hybrid three days a week in the office, two days working from home. The days I went to the office where the team were off doing their work, I hated because I'm there to sit with the team and the team aren't there. That's where the biggest challenges, I think it's with the hybrid workplace, the hybrid strategy, is that individuals, when they go into the office, well why are they there if their team aren't there? How does that motivate people? How does that encourage people to come back? I think people have to be strategic, teams need to be strategic and almost have team mandates, team agreements, whatever people want to call it that actually collectively, everyone works together and everyone's on the same page so that those days are not lost when people come together.

Chris:

Yeah. I guess branching off from there, but I think it's still related. Something that stuck with me and I thought about all day yesterday after our conversation was the signals of people who are going to be successful in business and how that's changed as the organization has in essence become more and more distributed. The conversation we were having is like, "Well, it was people who came in early, they stayed late." How do you think about that today with new people joining organizations where those signals and those habits and behaviors aren't built in the same way as they were 10, five, 10 years ago?

Steve Todd:

I think it's tough. I think it's really tough because when we were both starting, everybody knew if you were in before your boss and you were late before your boss, you had the greatest opportunity to work on projects. You had the greatest opportunity to get involved in conversations, hear things in an informal way rather than formal meetings because that's just how life happened. You knew being in the office, being late, there's a good chance of that. In today's environment, I think it's tougher. I think it's harder, it's harder to get attention from your managers, but there will be ways to do it. I don't envy that, but I think individuals need to sort of think about, "Okay, how do I bring my best to the work every day? How do I volunteer for things? How do I demonstrate or illustrate to my manager that actually I'm thinking about beyond just what I'm doing, but actually to what you said earlier, where's the puck going?What is it we need to be doing? What is it we need to be thinking about?"

Sometimes it's just engaging in conversations beyond the day job. What I mean by that is, well, what are we doing, why are we doing, and sharing a thought or a thinking on where this may be going to encourage a leader or demonstrate to a leader you're thinking beyond just what you're doing each day. It's very easy, I think in today's environment, to come in, do your job, and leave. It's easy just to think you're being productive by responding to emails. It's so easy to do it. We can have days where all we do is sit in emails and we think back and we go, "What did I do today? What did I accomplish?" It just feels like I didn't really do anything. I think that individuals who are in that environment, I think we have to learn, I think everyone has to learn, leaders have to learn how to identify those individuals who are actually prepared to go on above and trust me, leaders are always looking and on the lookout for that and looking for those signals, and I think it's up to individuals to catch onto those things signals, latch on. You know yourself. You can tell when someone's, you have a conversation with somebody, something will spark in you that they're thinking beyond just what their day job is and that'll stick in your head.

When a project comes up, you'll go back to that individual and say, "Look, we're thinking about this. What are your thoughts?" and then from there, that's how people progress. Look, we know that that's how we were successful and that's how we progress through organizations because you get involved in projects. Once you get involved though, you have to deliver. You have to deliver and deliver them doesn't mean you're always right. What it means is that you follow through, you show commitment, you demonstrate that you're willing to go above and beyond. I know folks on my team who do that and have been tremendously successful because they're doing that. You, likewise, I'm sure you know within your organization, individuals like that too.

Chris:

Yeah, there's a fine line, I find, between productiveness and responsiveness. I think at times as the world has again in essence became more asynchronous as a byproduct of the way we're now working, I think there's a risk that people go too asynchronous. They are trying to work in a certain way, which is great. And I think it is the way to get the most productive deep work done like back to your point around the working three days, having more time to think. I think equally, there are times where coming together and having a quick two, three, five minute conversation versus these 30 minute organized meetings where we're trying to do the work at the same time as having a meeting has the potential to destroy productivity and actually really, really slow us down.

Steve Todd:

I totally, totally agree with you. I think that's where teams have to have that open communication and I think there has to be an understanding that at times, that asynchronous work, putting together a presentation is the perfect example where asynchronous work is super good, but when it comes to complex problems, a team has to understand what's the best way to fix that. For some teams, for some personalities, for some individuals, it will be continuously working asynchronously, but for other individuals it's not. We need to either get in a room, get on a call, whatever that is, and I think each team has to understand what that is to be beneficial for everybody.

Chris:

Mm. Well, final question, Steve, to wrap. You are, in my mind, one of the foremost experts on real estate who's working a big forward thinking organization and that's not always the case. Where do you go for your fix on what the future of workspace looks like? Is there books, is there podcasts? Is there anything else that you turn to?

Steve Todd:

I read a lot, obviously Opensource Workplace, I create a lot of content. I have a bunch of writers who create a lot of content, so I get fixes and thoughts from there. I do read a lot and the book that shook me was I read the book Bold, Peter Diamandas, and it was all about the future where everything is going. I read that in 2017 and 2018, it scared the life out of me, and if I think about when I read that and where we are today, a lot of it's coming to fruition. I think about how is AI going to change? How is robotic technology going to change? How's it going to change everything that we're doing? There is no doubt that technology can replace almost everything I'm doing, almost everything, and probably do it way better than I can and deliver it in a much more empathetic tone and a lot more collective and let's go sort of tone than I ever could. With that, that's what I'm thinking about.

Again, I always go back to Simon Sinek's on playing the infinite game. How do I make sure I have a relevance every single day going forward, irrespective of where that puck goes? That's sort of where my mindset is. I listen to a lot of podcasts, I read a lot of books, I read a lot of content, but I always encourage folks is we're fortunate in a way where we grew up, where we had a news that sort of portrayed certain things and we learned to look behind the headlines. I just encourage everybody to go behind, what is the purpose of whatever it is we're reading? What's the question behind the question, and have that mindset, but always thinking about yourself in a sense of how am I playing the infinite game and how can I better understand and gain more knowledge and think about how to adapt and change with the times?

My background is all finance. I came into NASDAQ as a BUCFO, and then I slowly transitioned over to real estate and it's good. It stood me in a really good state because leasing and finance, all related, and I've been fortunate to do that but I love workplace. I just love thinking about this. I don't need to ... I wake up every day and it's sad, but this is what I think about what I mean? It's just natural and in me. I often ask myself what is it I enjoy most about it and to be honest, it's helping people. That's what it's all about. It's being of service to other people within the organization being helpful, hearing issues or concerns and trying to fix those things. I think as long as we have a mindset what we're trying to serve and help other people, then I think we're always going to be in a good place.

Chris:

Well, I think that's a pretty good place to cut because I think if we can champion a little more of that empathy in the world of work, we probably do end up in a better world of living overall. Steve as always, it's been a pleasure.

Steve Todd:

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity and yeah, well done. Congratulations with all your success at First Base, the team you've created, and thank you again for the opportunity to chat with you today.

Chris:

You too. See you soon.

Steve Todd:

Cheers.